Comments on: Italy screws US tourists and adds to already astounding domestic bureaucratic clusterf*ck in same move http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/ Leif Pettersen's battery-powered rise to the zenith of travel writing rapture Mon, 06 Sep 2010 05:01:54 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Killing Batteries » Poll: At what point do foreign entry requirements harsh your travel mellow? http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/comment-page-1/#comment-34428 Killing Batteries » Poll: At what point do foreign entry requirements harsh your travel mellow? Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:56:39 +0000 http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/#comment-34428 [...] registration regulations for US tourist (and possibly other nationalities) staying more than eight business days. Part of the reason I’m in a tizzy is that I still can’t find a definitive answer. The [...] [...] registration regulations for US tourist (and possibly other nationalities) staying more than eight business days. Part of the reason I’m in a tizzy is that I still can’t find a definitive answer. The [...]

]]> By: Gemma http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/comment-page-1/#comment-34072 Gemma Tue, 16 Oct 2007 20:22:15 +0000 http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/#comment-34072 Americans don't get stopped in Italy. The people that are stopped are some obviously illegal immigrants who are told to get out of the country within a certain limit of time, but, as they are not actually taken to the frontier or the airport or whatnot, they just go to another town and get lost there. The idea of the Frenchman who needs a visa to stay in Italy is obviously untrue, because the whole idea of UE is to move from one country to another freely. Talking about passports, did you know that the normal european passport that we europeans have, is not valid if you want to enter the U.S. and you need to get a special one? I guess you did not know that. And I also think that you do not know, because american newspapers rarely print european news, that an american judge has denied the request of the italian authorities to extradite a mafia boss.The reason is, laugh or weep whichever comes first,that the italian law that allows mafia people limited access to members of their "families" is a cruel and unusual punishment. Does Guantanamo come to mind? Or the handicapped and the children executed in the course of the years in the USA? Italy may have a screwed up bureaucratic system, but when it comes to humanity I think we do a little better than you. bye and good night Gemma, always your friend Americans don’t get stopped in Italy. The people that are stopped are some obviously illegal immigrants who are told to get out of the country within a certain limit of time, but, as they are not actually taken to the frontier or the airport or whatnot, they just go to another town and get lost there. The idea of the Frenchman who needs a visa to stay in Italy is obviously untrue, because the whole idea of UE is to move from one country to another freely. Talking about passports, did you know that the normal european passport that we europeans have, is not valid if you want to enter the U.S. and you need to get a special one? I guess you did not know that.
And I also think that you do not know, because american newspapers rarely print european news, that an american judge has denied the request of the italian authorities to extradite a mafia boss.The reason is, laugh or weep whichever comes first,that the italian law that allows mafia people limited access to members of their “families” is a cruel and unusual punishment. Does Guantanamo come to mind? Or the handicapped and the children executed in the course of the years in the USA?
Italy may have a screwed up bureaucratic system, but when it comes to humanity I think we do a little better than you.
bye and good night
Gemma, always your friend

]]> By: leif http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/comment-page-1/#comment-34035 leif Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:50:45 +0000 http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/#comment-34035 Gemma – your argument about US immigration is indisputable. I don't even know where to start it's so embarrassing, so I won't. But equally, after you're been interviewed, searched, frisked, probed and charged, does US immigration make you run several errands to satisfy confusing, non-specific, yet ominous directives while you're on your very brief vacation? No. Furthermore, more Americans go to Italy on holiday than Italians go to America. This is not pompous American posturing, just a fact. This is because a) there are more of us, and b) Italy is a much more enjoyable vacation destination. So why would Italy want to deter future vacationers with these intimidating pointless rules? It's self-defeating and a long-term money-losing proposition, which is my entire point. And Italy is not acting on security paranoia (like we claim to be), that might actually be somewhat forgivable. Italy seems to be acting on short-sighted, nickel-and-dime profiteering. Am I wrong? How would you interpret this development? Finally, when we make crazy entry requirements in the US we goddamn well enforce them, upon entry. We don't vaguely ask you to run around taking responsibility to satisfy them on your free time after you've been cut loose into the wild, which, even if you interpret them correctly (impossible), you may not be able to complete all the paperwork because of the already sizable processing backlog Italy has. And you know better than anyone that when the hapless American tourist gets stopped in Italy and can't produce this proper wad of receipts upon request because the post office didn't have all the right paperwork, the tourist will nevertheless be at fault and get shafted. Finally, I agree with you, go to Italy. Don't waste time, money and your dignity coming to the US. Freeze us out and maybe our immigration authorities will eventually see some reason. Gemma – your argument about US immigration is indisputable. I don’t even know where to start it’s so embarrassing, so I won’t.

But equally, after you’re been interviewed, searched, frisked, probed and charged, does US immigration make you run several errands to satisfy confusing, non-specific, yet ominous directives while you’re on your very brief vacation? No.

Furthermore, more Americans go to Italy on holiday than Italians go to America. This is not pompous American posturing, just a fact. This is because a) there are more of us, and b) Italy is a much more enjoyable vacation destination. So why would Italy want to deter future vacationers with these intimidating pointless rules? It’s self-defeating and a long-term money-losing proposition, which is my entire point.

And Italy is not acting on security paranoia (like we claim to be), that might actually be somewhat forgivable. Italy seems to be acting on short-sighted, nickel-and-dime profiteering. Am I wrong? How would you interpret this development?

Finally, when we make crazy entry requirements in the US we goddamn well enforce them, upon entry. We don’t vaguely ask you to run around taking responsibility to satisfy them on your free time after you’ve been cut loose into the wild, which, even if you interpret them correctly (impossible), you may not be able to complete all the paperwork because of the already sizable processing backlog Italy has. And you know better than anyone that when the hapless American tourist gets stopped in Italy and can’t produce this proper wad of receipts upon request because the post office didn’t have all the right paperwork, the tourist will nevertheless be at fault and get shafted.

Finally, I agree with you, go to Italy. Don’t waste time, money and your dignity coming to the US. Freeze us out and maybe our immigration authorities will eventually see some reason.

]]> By: Gemma http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/comment-page-1/#comment-34029 Gemma Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:14:49 +0000 http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/#comment-34029 I have never read such a load of crap in my life! And from a country, the USA, that has institutionalized paranoia! Believe me, I came into Italy, with my american husband and my romanian driver and nobody asked us for anything, because there was nobody to ask anything, as the border between Austria and Italy has been abolished! As for a Frenchman needing documents to stay in Italy, come and ask the hundreds of romanians and bulgarians that live in my hometown without anybody saying shoo to them! Americans all, come into Italy! In spite of what you may read on this site or that, nobody is going to harass you for as long as you like to stay. When I came to your country, legally married to an american citizen, I had to go through hell to get a visa. They treated me like a piece of shit and they made me pay for it(I mean money). They looked into my boots to see if, being an eye-talian (I hope that people that use that expression do it jocularly, otherwise woe to the already mediocre standard of american education!), I had dope, AK49 or what not in them. When my husband came to marry me, instead, they barely looked at his passport and they did not stamp it, but smiled at him and said welcome. Now, if you want to go to Australia, a civilized country as everybody knows, full of honourable people, they look up your arse-hole,among other indignities, before letting you in. I know, because my fellow lecturers who had the bad luck to draw Australia, told us about it. Stop badmouthing italy and look in your own backyard instead! A very pissed off Gemma Leif, I did not expect this from you! I have never read such a load of crap in my life! And from a country, the USA, that has institutionalized paranoia! Believe me, I came into Italy, with my american husband and my romanian driver and nobody asked us for anything, because there was nobody to ask anything, as the border between Austria and Italy has been abolished! As for a Frenchman needing documents to stay in Italy, come and ask the hundreds of romanians and bulgarians that live in my hometown without anybody saying shoo to them! Americans all, come into Italy! In spite of what you may read on this site or that, nobody is going to harass you for as long as you like to stay. When I came to your country, legally married to an american citizen, I had to go through hell to get a visa. They treated me like a piece of shit and they made me pay for it(I mean money). They looked into my boots to see if, being an eye-talian (I hope that people that use that expression do it jocularly, otherwise woe to the already mediocre standard of american education!), I had dope, AK49 or what not in them. When my husband came to marry me, instead, they barely looked at his passport and they did not stamp it, but smiled at him and said welcome.
Now, if you want to go to Australia, a civilized country as everybody knows, full of honourable people, they look up your arse-hole,among other indignities, before letting you in. I know, because my fellow lecturers who had the bad luck to draw Australia, told us about it.
Stop badmouthing italy and look in your own backyard instead!
A very pissed off Gemma
Leif, I did not expect this from you!

]]> By: leif http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/comment-page-1/#comment-34011 leif Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:33:06 +0000 http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/#comment-34011 Thanks Mark. The English on that site worked for me (IE), but that didn't change the fact that none of my questions were answered and I know even less now than before. Lucas – you may be right, but why? Yes, they take down your passport info when you stay at hotels/hostels/pensions in Italy, but they don't require 'a complete photocopy of their passport, present sufficient proof of their means of financial support, submit photographs, a photocopy of their insurance policy, photocopy proof of their return to the United States, and pay a fee.' Why all the hubbub? And what if they decide your proof of means of financial support doesn't pass muster? Will the post office clerk arrest you and escort you to the airport? Dude, if it's that critical, do that step at immigration, who, by the way, already have a scan of your passport, so this photocopy/photograph/registration business is a pointless exercise in repetition. Oh wait, they barely glace at your passport when you enter by land or sea, so maybe that's why they're instituting all this registration nonsense. Or they could just send a memo to the land/sea immigration guys and tell them not to do their jobs in a half-assed way anymore. Sounds crazy, I know…. Here's even more info that helps only a little (thanks again Alex!): As of May 28, 2007, under Italian law (http://www.camera.it/parlam/leggi/07068l.htm), all non-residents are required to complete a dichiarazione di presenza (declaration of presence). Tourists arriving from a non-Schengen-country (e.g. the United States) should obtain a stamp in their passport at the airport on the day of arrival. This stamp is considered the equivalent of the declaration of presence. Tourists arriving from a Schengen-country (e.g. France) must request the declaration of presence form from a local police office (commissariato di zona), police headquarters (questura) or their place of stay (e.g hotel, hostel, campgrounds) and submit the form to the police or to their place of stay within eight business days of arrival. It is important that applicants keep a copy of the receipt issued by the Italian authorities. Failure to complete a declaration of presence is punishable by expulsion from Italy. Additional information may be obtained (in Italian only) via Internet from the following websites: http://www.portaleimmigrazione.it and http://www.poliziadistato.it/pds/ps/immigrazione/soggiorno.htm Sara – You're probably right on all accounts, but equally, this is starting to sound like a wide open campaign for officials to harass and fine tourists at whim for not having honored this vague, complicated and time-consuming series of bureaucratic nonsense. A lesser form of this harassment is already in full swing on buses and trains (some cities more than others) with all that ticket stamping shite, where even if you remember to get the stamp - which is a stretch for busy travelers as Italy is the only country in Europe that hasn't figured out how to print tickets with the date already on them - it's decreed as being the tourists' fault when the stamping machines fail to make an accurate/legible stamp. Brace yourselves for more shakedown stories along these lines on Thorn Tree. Thanks Mark. The English on that site worked for me (IE), but that didn’t change the fact that none of my questions were answered and I know even less now than before.

Lucas – you may be right, but why? Yes, they take down your passport info when you stay at hotels/hostels/pensions in Italy, but they don’t require ‘a complete photocopy of their passport, present sufficient proof of their means of financial support, submit photographs, a photocopy of their insurance policy, photocopy proof of their return to the United States, and pay a fee.’ Why all the hubbub? And what if they decide your proof of means of financial support doesn’t pass muster? Will the post office clerk arrest you and escort you to the airport? Dude, if it’s that critical, do that step at immigration, who, by the way, already have a scan of your passport, so this photocopy/photograph/registration business is a pointless exercise in repetition. Oh wait, they barely glace at your passport when you enter by land or sea, so maybe that’s why they’re instituting all this registration nonsense. Or they could just send a memo to the land/sea immigration guys and tell them not to do their jobs in a half-assed way anymore. Sounds crazy, I know….

Here’s even more info that helps only a little (thanks again Alex!):

As of May 28, 2007, under Italian law (http://www.camera.it/parlam/leggi/07068l.htm), all non-residents are required to complete a dichiarazione di presenza (declaration of presence). Tourists arriving from a non-Schengen-country (e.g. the United States) should obtain a stamp in their passport at the airport on the day of arrival. This stamp is considered the equivalent of the declaration of presence. Tourists arriving from a Schengen-country (e.g. France) must request the declaration of presence form from a local police office (commissariato di zona), police headquarters (questura) or their place of stay (e.g hotel, hostel, campgrounds) and submit the form to the police or to their place of stay within eight business days of arrival. It is important that applicants keep a copy of the receipt issued by the Italian authorities. Failure to complete a declaration of presence is punishable by expulsion from Italy. Additional information may be obtained (in Italian only) via Internet from the following websites: http://www.portaleimmigrazione.it and http://www.poliziadistato.it/pds/ps/immigrazione/soggiorno.htm

Sara – You’re probably right on all accounts, but equally, this is starting to sound like a wide open campaign for officials to harass and fine tourists at whim for not having honored this vague, complicated and time-consuming series of bureaucratic nonsense. A lesser form of this harassment is already in full swing on buses and trains (some cities more than others) with all that ticket stamping shite, where even if you remember to get the stamp – which is a stretch for busy travelers as Italy is the only country in Europe that hasn’t figured out how to print tickets with the date already on them – it’s decreed as being the tourists’ fault when the stamping machines fail to make an accurate/legible stamp. Brace yourselves for more shakedown stories along these lines on Thorn Tree.

]]> By: Sara, Ms. Adventures in Italy http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/comment-page-1/#comment-33965 Sara, Ms. Adventures in Italy Tue, 16 Oct 2007 07:18:13 +0000 http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/#comment-33965 The whole applying for a permesso within 8 days of entering the country is not a new requirement, though most tourists don't respect it and the officials don't check everyone. I echo Lucas - you really need a "home base" to make the permesso work anyway, though you might want to consider getting a work visa through Lonely Planet, etc. to smooth things out since you're overstaying the 90-days. The whole applying for a permesso within 8 days of entering the country is not a new requirement, though most tourists don’t respect it and the officials don’t check everyone. I echo Lucas – you really need a “home base” to make the permesso work anyway, though you might want to consider getting a work visa through Lonely Planet, etc. to smooth things out since you’re overstaying the 90-days.

]]> By: Lucas http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/comment-page-1/#comment-33943 Lucas Tue, 16 Oct 2007 03:21:54 +0000 http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/#comment-33943 Sounds like you only need to do something if you stay with friends or intend on renting long-term. I wouldn't worry about it if you're staying at hotels/hostels/pensions. Sounds like you only need to do something if you stay with friends or intend on renting long-term. I wouldn’t worry about it if you’re staying at hotels/hostels/pensions.

]]> By: Mark http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/comment-page-1/#comment-33941 Mark Tue, 16 Oct 2007 02:03:16 +0000 http://killingbatteries.com/2007/10/italy-screws-us-tourists-and-adds-to-already-astounding-domestic-bureaucratic-clusterfck-in-same-move/#comment-33941 Yuck... That's nigh insane. My only trip to Italy was around 2 weeks. And that seemed painfully short. Granted, as you say, by American standards it's hella long. What kind of country that has a huge tourism trade would piss on it like that? This site - http://www.expatsinitaly.com/arrival/permesso.html - has some background on it and links to the official site that's supposedly in English but the English option didn't work in Firefox at least. I like how they point out how hugely behind they are in processing it. Supposedly if you stay in a hotel or some such, they do it for you... right... I bet... Yuck… That’s nigh insane.

My only trip to Italy was around 2 weeks. And that seemed painfully short. Granted, as you say, by American standards it’s hella long.

What kind of country that has a huge tourism trade would piss on it like that?

This site – http://www.expatsinitaly.com/arrival/permesso.html – has some background on it and links to the official site that’s supposedly in English but the English option didn’t work in Firefox at least. I like how they point out how hugely behind they are in processing it. Supposedly if you stay in a hotel or some such, they do it for you… right… I bet…

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